On October 25 2003, scholars, theologians and scientists came together at the University of  Wisconsin for a conference on the question of God, Man, and ET. Richard C. Hoagland produced a 6-DVD set documenting this conference.


Notes on the DVDs:


The conference featured the following contributors:


Richard C. Hoagland: The Gods of Cydonia: the Case for Ancient Artificial Structures in the

Solar System


Dave Flynn: The Mars/Earth Connection: Cydonia in Ancient Science and Mythology

Flynn is “the watcher”


Dr. Michael S. Heiser: No room at the Inn? Can the Judeo-Christian Worldview Accommodate an

Intelligent ET Reality?



Dr. Hugh Ross: Does ET Have a Home? The Probability for life's Existence Elsewhere in the Universe


Dr. Paul Nelson: If ET Called, How Would We Know It?




Disk 1) Richard C. Hoagland: The Gods of Cydonia: the Case for Ancient Artificial Structures in the

Solar System


Hoagland firmly believes the Cydonia “face” is an artificial structure representing a humanoid face.


Stanley McDaniel agreed with those who saw a “face” in the Cydonia  images, and wrote a scathing condemnation of NASA., the 1993 McDaniel Report.


The case for the face: scientists examine the evidence for alien artifacts ...

 By Stanley V. McDaniel


Book overview

This readable, richly illustrated, and remarkable book makes a case for the idea that an alien race left huge constructions on Mars -- known as the Cydonia Mystery -- evidenced by a mile-long, humanlike "Mars Face" surrounded by pyramid structures.

In the wake of JPL's Pathfinder Mission to Mars, The Case for the Face unifies the research and opinions of a remarkably accomplished group of scientists, including a former NASA astronaut, a quantum physicist who is chair of a space science program, leading meteor researchers, nine Ph.D.'s, the best-selling science author in Germany, and the authors of every credentialed paper ever published on the Mars anomalies. The Case for the Face also includes:
-- An introduction by Dr. David Webb, a member of President Reagan's National Space Commission
-- NASA research proving we're not the first intelligent race in this solar system
-- 120 amazing high-resolution images never seen before by the general public
-- Three separate doctoral statistical studies,demonstrating the likelihood of artificial objects at the Cydonian site to be over 99%.

This is the only book to synthesize the vast amounts of solid scientific research on the "Mars Face", with more current information and imagery than The Martian Enigmas, The Case for Mars or Destination Mars. It's an elegantly constructed story of wonder, perseverance, and revelation.



Hoagland suggests a link between the planet Mars and the ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean, especially Rome.

Notes that on north west corner of the island of Crete is the town Cydonia, and the town of Sidon in the middle east.


He notes additional images were taken of the original Cydonia face taken by Viking, for a total of four images.

(Mars Surveyor, Odyssey)


Mark Carlotto, an imaging expert, wrote the book The Martian Enigmas: A Closer Look. He adapted satellite imaging technology used to distinguish artificial from natural objects. This technology, called photoclinometry, makes use of the fact that natural objects are composed of fractal patterns; those that are artificial can be made to stand out. The Cydonia “face” stood out.


In the history of the NASA probes to Mars, the region of Cydonia was the most photographed by the NASA analysts Malon and Christianson (?) who publicly claimed the Cydonia “face” was just a natural feature,


Hoagland: “To  me, the NASA experience has for-shadowed my experience with the entire US government…between what they say and what they do there is a total disconnect. … more and more people are beginning to realize there is something wrong with what we are being told in all kinds of areas…”


Oddessy image:  shows “face” from top at sunrise; it is 99% reflective, much more reflective than surrounding objects.

Hoagland suggests the brightness is because the surface is mirror like.


Notes colors in bright image; notes blueness  [could this be related to chromatic aberration?]


Some of the nearby “mesas” show same brightness features.


Has approached Mars Express people on German camera on European probe going to Mars: Dr Gerhard Neukum, who is the principal investigator of the German camera, has assured several members of Hoagland’s group (enterprise) that they intend to use the two meter color camera to attempt to resolve the Cydonia question, including pre-dawn and post sunset images.




Disk 2)  Dave Flynn aka “The Watcher”: The Mars/Earth Connection: Cydonia in Ancient Science and Mythology


Great thinkers believed that planets communicated in some way 

Neo pythagorans and neoplatonists of 4th cen ad (pronounces neoplatonist wrong)

Empleocleese? Porphory, nemonios saccus?? “As above so below”

Heavens impart knowledge to earth; platonic emanations

5 sided D&M pyramid in cydonia area near “face” pentagram was most sacred shape of pathagorean school

From burial chamber of  tuthmosis 3rd 5 pronged stars like stick figures; “anthropomorphic

(remember Leonardo: human in pentagram) theme repeated often pentagram stars and men 5 pointed star assoc with sirius star


Sirius Dog star known in ancient Egypt. Canaan adjacent to Egypt on Mediteranian sea. Mt Hermon highest point in middle east 9200 ft hi. Boarders 3 countries. Much legend and myth about this mountain. Legend has it that first angels (ETS) came to earth from this point. It was from this point that they propagated themselves and knowledge into the earth.


“And it came to pass, when the sons of men had increased, that in those days there were born to them fair and beautiful daughters, and the angles, the sons of heaven, saw them and desired them”   and they were in all 200 and they came down on Ardis, which is the summit of Mount Herman.


-          Pseudepigraphic “book of Enoch”


The off spring of the sons of heaven and the daughters of man were called nephelin “the fallen ones”


First city built in antiquity according to strabo was Sidon. Sidon was also the first son of Caanon, son of noah. Inhabitants of Caanon called themselves sidonians or sons of the dog.


NonnusDionysiaca, 40, 430-435

from the beginning of time, people lived here, apeople of divine progeny; there age is that of the universe”


Name sidonia turns up in many ancient myths, as foundation of knowledge and religious system that came intact from heaven. Invariably leads to this idea that Mars has something to do with it.  The Europa that Zeus raped was sidonian. The name Europe is sidonian.

Zeus took Europa to Crete. There was a city Sidon on Crete. (proves nothing; could just be named on basis of zeus myth)


Romulus and remus suckled by a dog (!)


Cadmus, brother of europa, gave alphabet to greeks. Says greek alphabet, traditionally attributed to “phenocians” real source was sidonia. “Phenocian” just means red.

Greeks called siodoniansphonecian”s


“Emerald tablets of toth or hermes” copies made by Albert Magnus and Issac Newton.

According to Magnus, this is an ancient text written in pheonocan, found by Alexander the ggreat; one page 14 statements that no alchemist or hermeticist should be without. Vaguely reminicinat  of lords prayer; references heaven coming to earth.


Egyptian god dog anubis


Colin Andrews: 90% of all crop circles in the world occur in England 90% of those occur in the province of Wiltshire, home of the major megalithic sites silberry hill avery circle and stone henge.


The fruit eve holds in a number of artistic depictions of the fall is not an apple but a quince, which has a botanical name pyra sidonoia  cross section of quince shows 5 fold symmetry.


Disc 3) Dr. Hugh Ross/ Dr. Paul Nelson

Dr. Hugh Ross: Does ET Have a Home? The Probability for life's Existence Elsewhere in the Universe

Dr. Ross is introduced as a leader in the “Intelligent Design movement.” According to Wikipedia, Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.  It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, but one which avoids specifying the nature or identity of the designer. The idea was developed by a group of American creationists who reformulated their argument in the creation-evolution controversy to circumvent court rulings that prohibit the teaching of creationism as science. Intelligent design's leading proponents – all of whom are associated with the Discovery Institute, a politically conservative think tank – believe the designer to be the God of Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

Dr Ross appears to be a very “closed system” guy; wanting to put boxes around things . Still, the presentation contains lots of good scientific information and analysis, but the conclusion is not necessary; ie  causality by a Christian god. The supernatural has been described as that which we do not yet understand rationally.  Based on our current discoveries, we have been able to comprehend “natural” phenomena our predecessors would have considered supernatural. Even if we are never able to fully understand it rationally does not mean it is not “rational”; it just means it is beyond our comprehension. If this is what is meant by the “supernatural”, maybe it is. But this is not to belittle “rationality” or “supernatural”. 

Dr. Ross states he is collecting scientific evidence which proves that a supernatural God is responsible for the existence of humanity on our planet Earth www.reasons.org.  He provides four arguments why he believes ET has not visited our solar system:

The Heavenly Body Problem, The Origin of Life Problem, Intelligent Life Problems, and Space Travel Problems.

The heavenly body problem: Points out the very special circumstances which have made life on earth possible, including the structure of galaxies, super Nova, existence of Jupiter and the fine tuning of the Moon. Says moon torn out from early earth by a Mars sized planet, which  allowed the development of just the right atmospheric properties. Further, heavy elements were transferred to the earth, and lighter elements formed a debris field which coalesced into the moon. Sun brightens every year. The earth system perfectly compensates for this by reducing the effiency of green house gasses.

Basically says everything is fine tuned for  life on earth  and  life on earth is unique.

Origin of life problem: 

brief time scale,

no soups or substrates,

oxygen UV paradox,

oxidants paradox,

non bioactive contaminants.

Homochirality problem

Phosphorus problem: need to account for the abundance of phosphorus

Rarity of building blocks

Destruction vs construction

Hostile environments


51 characteristics of the universe must be fine tuned to make life possible. The  entire universe must be there to allow the existence of life on earth.


Scientists have commented on the fact that it took only 14 billion years  to prepare home for humanity;

calculation tell us it should take much longer, but four outstanding miraculous interventions made it possible; ie type 1 and type 2 supernova; white dwarf binary, just right collisions at the just right time.


Max time human civilization can exist under this optimization is 41 k years. British cosmologist Brandon Carter said there must be an extremely high purpose and value, given our longevity is so short but preparation so long.


SETI doing a lot of research; so far they have concluded no intelligent life as civilized as ours within 155 light years; that there is no super ETI within 1000 light years.


Maximum travel speed is .1 c.  the faster you go, the more damage you will sustain. Minimum travel time would be 25 k years to reach earth, but window of existence for an intelligent species is shorter than that.



“Scientists have commented on the fact that it took only 14 billion years  to prepare home for humanity;

calculation tell us it should take much longer, but four outstanding miraculous interventions made it possible; ie type 1 and type 2 supernova; white dwarf binary, just right collisions at the just right time.”


The issue of time in this  context seems neither here nor there. From our perspective it would make no difference wether  it took 14 billion or 140 billion years to prepare our home. The only way that could make a difference is if there were some kind of vast time schedule that was being met.



Dr. Paul Nelson: If ET Called, How Would We Know It?

fellow for science and culture discovery institute seattle; another intelligent design guy. discovery institute: how would we detect intelligent causation in nature? SETI assumption: if ET is trying to send a message, we should be able to detect it.

looks at issue from philosophical perspectrive:

Epistemology: how would we know when a mind like our own has acted in the universe?

Def of science? Can we use “intelligent causes” in scientific explanation?

Some influential or widely held definitions of science may be hindering our ability to detect the action of intelligence other than human in the universe.  

From the National Academy of Sciences: The Rule of Methodological Naturalism:  “The statements of science must invoke only natural things and processes.”

Elliott Sober: philosopher of science.

There are natural causes and intelligent causes in your daily life. Examples: fraud; “mint jelly’ Ridge.

Explanatory filter: logic developed by Bill Dembski to explain how we detect the action of intelligence.

We observe events. Did it have to happen? If so it was necessary. If there is a small probability of the event happening, and it occurs in a pattern, you can infer design.

Design inferences are essential to  many areas of human inquiry:


Patent and intellectual property law

Cryptography: codemakers and code breakers

Fraud in science

Archeology paleontology



SETI: looks for narrow band radio transmission as a sign of intelligence.

SETI researchers make a “causal impotence” claim: “there is no natural cause to explain the origin of narrow band radio transmissions.”

Maybe we are just not clever enough to determine the natural cause

What’s wrong with these causal impotence claims in science?

Sober: because of the problem of induction, it is possible to err when inferring an intelligent cause for what might actually be a naturally caused pattern. So, we want to exhaust all possible natural causes before moving to intelligent design. Nelson says you can never exhaust the possible natural causes, and this is a problem.


you will be an absolutely miserable scientist or simply human being if you stay at the first node of the explanatory filter.”

Even people who consider themselves religious, as scientists keep to  The Rule of Methodological Naturalism. Kepler and Newton would not have recognized the Rule of Methodological Naturalism; they did not presuppose it. But in the 19th century, with the Darwinian revolution, the way science is conducted changes. David Hull Darwin and the nature of science 1983: the Darwinian revolution was as much concerned with the promotion of a particular view of science as it was with the introduction of a theory on species.


Darwin was working with natural vs supernatural causes. Said got to get rid of supernatural.  Nelson does not like term “supernatural”:uses example of bringing back Aristotle  to see electronic gagetry: can use this same idea to say as we evolve, a lot will become attributed to natural causes.


Nelson considers the origin of life as possibly an example of intelligent design. By excluding “supernatural”, “intelligent” also  gets excluded. This limits the tools of science.

“In the end, science would be more free and honest without a rule it does not need. “


On the issue of a yeast protein of exceedingly high complexity bordering on randomness: you can extend this to the world as a whole: the world may be full of patterns which we have lost the key to detect or do not yet have the knowledge to detect but they are out there.


Nelson puts Hoagland’s suggestion of intelligent design of artifacts on Mars through the explanatory filter. He is not sure where he would place it.


Dr. Michael S. Heiser: No room at the Inn? Can the Judeo-Christian Worldview Accommodate an

Intelligent ET Reality?


Heiser has had a life long interest in the paranormal, especially UFOlogy and ET life. Lectures frequently on the topics of divine beings and angels. Does translation work in a dozen ancient languages. At the time of the presentation he was working on a response to Sitchin’s ancient astronaut theory.


Proposes evaluation of the ideas presented in this series of lectures:

In some way there appears  to be a correspondence between Mars in mythology that runs through ancient history.

Whose right? If Hoagland is correct that these are artificial structures,  that infers intelligence, not necessarily ET. Then Dave’s topic is more important. If Richard is wrong, Dave’s topic, the patterns in history is still valid.  If there is “intelligence” on Mars, Richard would say it is ET; Dave (Michael checked with Dave) believes it is a higher intelligence; supernatural, but not alien.  In this view, a body of knowledge has been handed down, not from biological ETs, but by spiritual beings. Dave is drawing from an ol tradition that believes spiritual beings inhabit the planets. (if you are spiritual, you don’t need to inhabit anything?) this is the Pythagorean tradition.


Nelson: Intelligent or supernatural; opposes supernatural;  Dave’s thesis is that it is supernatural.

Can the Judeo-Christian Worldview Accommodate an Intelligent ET Reality?


Fundamentalist and conservative Christians or Jews fear of ET reality. Do not need to fear. Don’t have to give up belief in face of possibility of reality of ET. In 1277, bishop of Paris issued a condemnation of doctrines which seem to set limits to gods omnipotence. One of the propositions condemned was that the first cause cannot make many worlds.  The Principle of Plenitude posited that god necessarily must fulfill his full potential, if he can create other worlds, which he can, then he must. This principle was supported by  Christians and Christian theologians through the enlightenment. This belief was undermined by Thomas Paine in his book The Age of Reason. He basically believed that Christian theology is incompatible with multiple other worlds, and was considered a deist, who believes in god, but not in the Christian resurrection.

 ”Somehow we have gotten into our minds that if you believe in ET you also believe in Darwin’s evolution, but why”

In summary, Heiser is a devout Christian who argues for  and with the Christian bible, and who believes the existence of ET should not cause people to question their Christian faith.


Ends with a question: If evidence of ET never surfaces, if the problem of matter creating itself is never scientifically demonstrated and made philosophically coherent, if the evidence of intelligent design on earth cannot  be attributed to ET designers, then will the scientific materialists who look for the blessed hope of ET be able to sustain their belief system?